Judge says cyclist should have been more careful
sarabyrd
22.Jun.2009 20:41 hrs
[floatright]

[/floatright]
Last week, a Munich judge declared a truck driver "not guilty" after he had run over a 26-year-old cyclist at the corner of Arnulfstrasse and Sedlmayrstrasse last August. According to the evidence, he had been going at the speed of 12 kph when he overlooked the woman heading straight on the bicycle path while he was turning right. The truck driver can look back on 25 years of experience without any dangerous or harmful incident. The victim’s parents can look back on 26 years with their daughter and ahead to a bleak future, always with the underlying theme of the judge’s opinion that the defendant was free of guilt and that cyclists just have to be extremely cautious. She calls this case “a warning to all cyclists riding next to such a vehicular monster”.
Dem Angeklagten sei keine Schuld nachweisbar, befand die Richterin. Und: Radfahrer müssten eben besonders aufpassen
Due to the height of the driver’s seat in the cab and in spite of the three mirrors on the right side of the truck there was no way that the driver could have prevented the collision, the court-appointed expert explained during the trial. The driver himself also denies any incorrect behavior – although one witness claims to have seen him handling a walkie-talkie at the time of the accident.
The victim’s father refuses to see
force majeur in his daughter’s death and demands that trucks come to an absolute halt before turning a corner, or that traffic lights give cyclists a separate green cycle.
The victim’s family will most probably appeal the case.
MonksTown
22.Jun.2009 20:49 hrs
It's tragic and I find it hard to even begin to understand the grief the family have gone through and are going through.
But there can be accidents without fault.
The whole area around the Donny Brucke is an accident blackspot and something needs to be done.
I don't know what though.
SpiderPig
22.Jun.2009 20:53 hrs
Changing the Order of the Cycle Traffic lights and Vehicle traffic lights would sop many of these accidents and allow better flow of traffic!
Allowing the Cyclists and pedestrians to cross for the last 20 second of the Green light rather than the First 20, will releive so much of the traffic problems in Munich, If not Germany!
Mapleleafdude
22.Jun.2009 20:53 hrs
Having cycled my way to work through downtown Hamburg/Toronto a couple of dozen times I am aware that drivers and cyclists alike should respect the other traffic participants more. Cyclists more often than not think they are above the law and cross red lights and J-cross intersections (usually endangering pedestrians in the process).
Personally I think anyone wanting to prove they have bigger balls than a 40T truck need to learn the hard way. You cant force your right of way and always expect to win.
Still sad cause of the death.
MonksTown
22.Jun.2009 21:07 hrs
The key along that route is eperating right turning of trucks across the path of cyclists and pedestrians but that would slow traffic down considerably.
bohemka
22.Jun.2009 21:17 hrs
Very sad. I don't mean to sound like an insensitive ass, but the truck was moving at 12 kms an hour? Did she ride full-on into its side and knock herself out? If she was in front of the truck while it knocked her down he surely should have noticed, 25 years of great driving or not.
Bell the cat
22.Jun.2009 21:42 hrs
the truck did no have to be going fast. If it turned into her path and she was going full pelt into its side that would be enough to kill her (especially if she did not have a helmet). The once cycle accident I was ever in had a car turn right across my path as I came down a hill in Edinburgh. Since he was going from a standing stop in a queue waiting to turn right I guess he was at less than 10mph. But his move to turn into my path was too late for me to brake in time and I struck the side of his car and was catapulted up high over the car, against a bridge wall and then crashing down headfirst onto the road. The helmet I was wearing split in half with the force and almost certainly saved my life.
MonksTown
22.Jun.2009 21:50 hrs
Cyclist speed is quite an issue in that area, there's some straight flat sections where you can build up quite a tempo.
If you are coming off the bridge then you can be going even faster and I witnessed the aftermath of a nasty accident of this type there about a year ago.
There were other people to call an ambulance and the police so I didn't stick around.
Maybe a STOP requirement for trucks turning right is one solution.
I#d also consider some kind of chicane or bump to slow cyclists down and perhaps have a STOP reuirement for them as well?
Carm
22.Jun.2009 21:59 hrs
Maybe a STOP requirement for trucks turning right is one solution.
I#d also consider some kind of chicane or bump to slow cyclists down and perhaps have a STOP reuirement for them as well?
yes, both the motor vehicle and the cyclist have to be aware!
I saw a bad accident about 9 years ago, a cyclist came down the wrong side of a car (she came on the left out of the parking lot) and turned right infront of a moving truck pulling out into traffic. The motorist was looking front and to the left to see if cars were coming, but not left behind, as it was a single lane exit from a parking lot, and the women came the wrong way.
It was raining and she had her head down, neither was going fast, but the collision sent her flying a few meters landing on her (unprotected) head. She died a few hours later.
I think both need to be more appreciative of the other. I often see cyclists (not all, but enough) that are going high speed through high pedestrian traffic areas or near busstops, where the bikepath and the sidewalk often are overcrowded as people get on/off the bus.
sarabyrd
22.Jun.2009 22:04 hrs
The way I see this they were going down Arnulfstrasse parallel to each other, the truck on the street, the cyclist on the bike path. You would think that a guy who has been driving a truck for 25 years knows enough to glance at the bike path well before he hits the intersection where he's planning to turn right and has enough experience and common sense to stop to let any cyclists he might have seen [s]and taken seriously[/s] pass.
Of course, if there is a huge truck next to you you'll be more wary than of a Smart, merely out of self-preservation. On the other hand, this could be a precedence for a blanket acquittal for all truck drivers, meaning they will lose whatever remnants of courtesy they may still have and just barrel on through.
MonksTown
22.Jun.2009 22:08 hrs
Depending on the speed and position SaraB he could have lookd in advance and not seen her and when he did turn she was in a mirror blind spot.
Katrina
22.Jun.2009 22:15 hrs
I cycle that route a fair bit and MT is right (he knows that area well too). The bike path is narrow, visibility isn't great even in a car especially due to the building work there (for the last few years). At low sun times, the visibility is even worse. We don't know if the truck driver had driven there before, if he had he'd have known that you get a few cyclists building up speed in that section. I get cut up there regularly despite keeping as far right as possible on the bike path and maintaining a regular speed.
I can certainly believe that a blind spot led to this tragedy.
Perhaps more signage or delayed signals would have helped (although many on that bike route ignore that light to be honest), but sometimes an accident is just that.
And cyclists, it is better to be alive than right. Ride defensively - you don't have airbags and the truck will win.
eurovol
22.Jun.2009 22:44 hrs
and that cyclists just have to be extremely cautious.
Maybe a STOP requirement for trucks turning right is one solution.
The first is correct, the latter is almost offensive. Cyclists here rarely look at anything while thinking they automatically have the right of way. This tragic incident shows that they need to think twice about what that actually might mean in the end. I all too often see cyclists oblivious to the world around them just ride in front of cars as if they had some kind of force field around them. 10 to 1 says the cyclist failed to use due care and caution thinking the law was on her side and the poor truck driver now has to deal with a tragic incident because the laws of physics says the cyclist over estimated the wrong set of laws.
Sorry, but this sounds like a Darwin Award to me.
HEM
23.Jun.2009 05:48 hrs
...and demands that trucks come to an absolute halt before turning a corner, or that traffic lights give cyclists a separate green cycle.
This is devoid of reality & is unenforceable. Enough people jump dark yellow/red[sup]*[/sup] lights without being caught
*[sub]
Sometimes known as Kirschgrün.[/sub]
Bell the cat
23.Jun.2009 06:24 hrs
The first is correct, the latter is almost offensive. Cyclists here rarely look at anything while thinking they automatically have the right of way. This tragic incident shows that they need to think twice about what that actually might mean in the end. I all too often see cyclists oblivious to the world around them just ride in front of cars as if they had some kind of force field around them. 10 to 1 says the cyclist failed to use due care and caution thinking the law was on her side and the poor truck driver now has to deal with a tragic incident because the laws of physics says the cyclist over estimated the wrong set of laws.
Sorry, but this sounds like a Darwin Award to me.
what a nasty little anticyclist tirade. Although there are occasional miscreants most of the other cyclists on my route into work (which crosses that intersection) take a lot of care. But eurovol you seem to have a critical misunderstanding of the rights of cyclists in Munich. At junctions cyclists have right of way over motorvehicles just as righthand car lanes have right of way over a car in the left lane wanting to turn right.
SmittyBoy
23.Jun.2009 06:56 hrs
At junctions cyclists have right of way over motorvehicles just as righthand car lanes have right of way over a car in the left lane wanting to turn right.
Tell that to the ten ton truck crossing your path, and see which of you suffers more in a collision. The simple fact is that a cyclist must be more aware of their surroundings than a automotive driver, since the auto provides a nice little protective shell insulating them (somewhat, anyway) from their mistakes.
A cyclist is simply not in this position, and therefor must be more careful.
marie-claire
23.Jun.2009 07:01 hrs
On the other hand, this could be a precedence for a blanket acquittal for all truck drivers, meaning they will lose whatever remnants of courtesy they may still have and just barrel on through.
That's exactly what I thought. These kind of accidents happen so often, therefore it is very irresponsible of the judge to react like this and make it look like the accident could have been prevented by the cyclist. There should be some action taken to prevent these kind of accidents in the future, but the judge's statement shows how unlikely it is that this will ever happen. Very sad.
SpiderPig
23.Jun.2009 07:08 hrs
I approach ALL junctions with extreme caution, Even if the Light is in my favour.
Surley it is Common sense for cyclists to do the same... But NO.. Because the light is green, they just plough straight on without looking!
Its like they think.. "
the man is Green, so go suck this!"
BattalionBoy
23.Jun.2009 07:36 hrs
I am very sad for this woman and her close family.
But let's be honest these cyclists race around town like they own the place and everyone has to just get out of their way.
They go too fast in close proximity to pedestrian areas and make walking around Munich unpleasant and dangerous.
Driving in Munich I have lost count of the times I have been shouted at and insulted by them.
sarabyrd
23.Jun.2009 07:42 hrs
I cycle that route a fair bit and MT is right (he knows that area well too). The bike path is narrow, visibility isn't great even in a car especially due to the building work there (for the last few years).
I've only ever driven there, mostly in a car but every now and then in a moving van. I was pleasantly surprised by the great view I had over the parked cars and how easily I could look back on my right, for example down and back onto the bike lane. Off topic but in the same vein: The Smart I drove last week is crap in that aspect, the glance over your shoulder is blocked by the rear window frame/chassis.
At junctions cyclists have right of way over motorvehicles just as righthand car lanes have right of way over a car in the left lane wanting to turn right.
At junctions anyone going straight has right of way over anyone turning right or left.
@ BB - I agree that a fair amount of cyclists are complete anarchists and I get really pissed off by them. However, I don't think that you can compare rude behavior of cyclists in the pedestrian zone, for example, with a truck driver who knows of the dangers of the blind angle and doesn't use all precaution necessary to avoid a collision.
joesjungle
23.Jun.2009 07:44 hrs
In Copenhagen they had such a problem with woman cyclists coming to the same fate that they made a commerical to help educate the public.
It starts out with a mother and child waiting at the red light and a truck to their left that is going to make a right turn. Then you flash to a woman on a bicycle going straight just as the truck begins its turn right. We flash back to the mother and child as the mother is covering the childs eyes and wincing and then its just black and you hear the sounds of metal, bones, and flesh crusing under the truck.
Even in Copenhagen with all their bicycles they still have the same problem. Its not easy for a truck to see its blind spots, it is not like a car. Please respect that truck drivers who bring you your food and retail goods that keep economies around the world going. A couple of seconds waiting for a truck to complete its turn is worth a lifetime with your family and loved ones.
fraufruit
23.Jun.2009 07:46 hrs
When biking, I always assume that the person behind the wheel of the car is a tourist and isn't familiar with the rules. I do not play with trucks after nearly being run over by a huge Paulaner truck years ago.
I never understand why bikers go so fast anyway. I always reach my destination at a relaxed and careful speed.
Allershausen
23.Jun.2009 07:48 hrs
There's a simple rule that works for bikes as well as motorbikes: If you can't see the drivers face in their mirror, then they can't see you either.
SpiderPig
23.Jun.2009 07:49 hrs
I've only ever driven there, mostly in a car but every now and then in a moving van. I was pleasantly surprised by the great view I had over the parked cars and how easily I could look back on my right, for example down and back onto the bike lane. Off topic but in the same vein: The Smart I drove last week is crap in that aspect, the glance over your shoulder is blocked by the rear window frame/chassis.
At junctions anyone going straight has right of way over anyone turning right or left.
You should try driving a Panelled van such as a transit!
When you take a driving test here you are taught to think about cyclists, but the cyclists are not warned about the dangers that cars pose for them at these junctions...
lilplatinum
23.Jun.2009 07:50 hrs
However, I don't think that you can compare rude behavior of cyclists in the pedestrian zone, for example, with a truck driver who knows of the dangers of the blind angle and doesn't use all precaution necessary to avoid a collision.
According to the court appointed expert, he did do everything that could have been reasonably expected. I mean as a driver I absolutely hate driving near trucks and they quite often (at least in the states) drive without the necessary regards to safety (much like bikers). But every accident isn't necessarily a result of negligence, sometimes shit like this happens.
Owain Glyndwr
23.Jun.2009 07:56 hrs
I've been hit twice by cars turning right across the cycle path, once on Maui and once in Munich. In both cases there wasn't time for me to react. In the first case, the cycle lane was a marked section of the road and not part of the sidewalk. An SUV overtook me and cut right in front of me to pull into a parking lot. I flew up into the air and banged against the passenger window. The second time I was cycling down Prinzregentenstrasse when a woman turned right across the cycle lane (again, no traffic lights involved). I managed to brake and swerve but her wing mirror snagged on my handle bars and dragged me along for about 50m till she finally stopped.
As far as near misses are concerned, I've had plenty as well, even some caused by cars accelerating from a stopped position with me halfway across the road to try and turn before me. I try and always make eye contact with the driver but you can't always. It annoys me when they half turn and lurch into the cycle lane and then stop blocking it completely.
BattalionBoy
23.Jun.2009 08:00 hrs
I agree that a fair amount of cyclists are complete anarchists and I get really pissed off by them.
You, me and everybody else. So why should we all have to be pissed off by them?
One can have a pleasant walk aroud Zurich for example without cyclists whizzing by - two inches from your left nostril.
I say fuck these assholes.
Sinderbox
23.Jun.2009 08:04 hrs
But there can be accidents without fault.
Maybe a STOP requirement for trucks turning right is one solution.
This is already in place.
You have in your hands a killing machine, do not move one fucking cm right or left, truck or car, if you are not 100% sure no bicycle, children, whatever is coming along.
If there is a blind spot, the driver must take that into account.
If the girl did have a green light, then the truck driver is 100% guilty.
sarabyrd
23.Jun.2009 08:04 hrs
As a cyclist, I always eye any truck next to me with peeled eyeballs. When one is turning I tend to coast and am ready to brake at all times. When it stops I hold up my left hand as a kind of non-verbal contact and also a sign of courtesy. As OG said, it's generally car drivers that are inattentive or inconsiderate; I have ended up with my front wheel almost at their door often enough. I should carry a camera at all times to get some priceless mug shots.
You, me and everybody else. So why should we all have to be pissed off by them?
One can have a pleasant walk aroud Zurich for example without cyclists whizzing by - two inches from your left nostril.
I say fuck these assholes.
Even easier and less strenuous: Move to Zurich.
BattalionBoy
23.Jun.2009 08:35 hrs
So admitt it Sarabyrd you are one of these maniacs aren't you?
sarabyrd
23.Jun.2009 08:36 hrs
So admitt it Sarabyrd you are one of these maniacs aren't you?
If I were this threat would convert me to model behavior immediately!
I say fuck these assholes.
Owain Glyndwr
23.Jun.2009 08:42 hrs
There are inconsiderate people in all walks of life and that includes pedestrians, cyclists, and car drivers. I encounter arseholes from all three categories virtually every day on my ride to work. Also you can be as careful as you want and some idiot is still going to cause an accident. Also, sometimes accidents do happen without someone necessarily being to blame.
bluedave
23.Jun.2009 08:47 hrs
I remember first driving both here and in Amsterdam and being terrified of killing a cyclist as I hadn't had to deal with cycle lanes in the UK.
I really do make a conscious effort to check for bikes when I turn as i'm still quite nervous of the pace that is built up by some cyclists.
BattalionBoy
23.Jun.2009 08:47 hrs
SB, if the outcome of this case is anything to go by then the legal system here agrees with me.
It seems that they have given the green light here to cull some of them.
Where are my truck keys? Where is this junction? Don't worry SB I will just target the fagotts and the ones wearing Pinocchio hats.
sarabyrd
23.Jun.2009 09:13 hrs
HellesAngel
23.Jun.2009 09:19 hrs
Cyclists here rarely look at anything while thinking they automatically have the right of way.
Sorry, but this sounds like a Darwin Award to me.
All too true, almost every day I see someone on a bike do something I class as dangerous and wouldn't do. Good luck to them. I just don't understand how some cyclists stay alive, they have absolutely no comprehension for the dangers all around them. Bless their little hearts.
SB, if the outcome of this case is anything to go by then the legal system here agrees with me.
Somehow I doubt it, but thanks for your input.
hermannyorks
23.Jun.2009 09:22 hrs
If there is a blind spot, the driver must take that into account.
If the girl did have a green light, then the truck driver is 100% guilty.
The reason it is called a blind spot is because you can't see in it. If you are not going to complete a manouver because of a blind spot then all the vehicles would be static. Yes, drivers should be aware of them. They should also do a lifesaver, which is a final look over the shoulder before completing the manouver. But cyclists etc need to be aware that if you cannot see the trucks mirrors they cannot see you. When you look at the speed that cyclists can do, even an inexperienced one can shift from a trucks blindspot into danger rapidly.
Beginner, short distance (say 10-15 miles): average speed 12 mph. Most cyclists can achieve 10-12 mph average very quickly with limited training
More experienced, short-medium distance (say 20-30 miles): average speed 15-16 mph
Reasonable experience, medium (say 40 miles): average speed 16-19 mph
Quite competent club rider, some regular training likely, medium-long distances (say 50-60 miles): 20-24 mph
Many cyclists never get an average speed over 13-15 mph, don't worry about it, enjoy yourself. Plenty of cyclists can maintain 25+ mph over long distances, especially if conditions are flat or they are cycling in groups.
http://www.road-bike.co.uk/articles/average-speed.php
If you are on a pushbike you need to ride defensively. You get taught this on a motorbike, but as there is no formal pushbike training (I don't know if its different in Germany) there is no way to teach people this
wardy
23.Jun.2009 09:24 hrs
I don't understand why they just can't keep cars on red for an extra 20 seconds to allow walkers/cyclists to cross safely without any chance of being hit by a car.
If both have the go ahead to go at the same time, then surely an accident like this was always going to be inevitable.
I say change the light systems so that the green man actually means what it is supposed to mean, that it is actually safe to cross!!
sarabyrd
23.Jun.2009 09:25 hrs
Children receive bike training in the third and/or fourth grade here and aren't really supposed to bike to school before that, even if they learned to ride a bike by the time they were five.
Driver's ed here (for a car licence) stresses the fact that you are protected by armour, pedestrians, cyclists and bikers are not. I don't know what truck training is like.
HellesAngel
23.Jun.2009 09:27 hrs
They should also do a lifesaver, which is a final look over the shoulder before completing the manouver.
IFAIK this doesn't work on trucks, it's impossible on most and the mirrors are the only chance. Cyclists should be aware (already asking a lot of some) that this is a danger and ride accordingly - sad but true that even if the truck driver was guilty of something the cyclist would still be dead.
JOB
23.Jun.2009 09:54 hrs
This is something I've always found really strange. OK, cyclists may have right of way but ultimately they are up against cars, lorries and buses. The way cyclists hammer through crossings always makes me think. When I'm cycling, regardless of if I have right of way I always slow down at crossings.
hermannyorks
23.Jun.2009 10:01 hrs
Freakster
23.Jun.2009 10:24 hrs
I'm amazed how many adults don't wear helmets while riding their bikes in Germany (well, at least my town). It's just asking for trouble. I had a crash once that ended in my helmet being split apart. Would have been my head and the end of me if I wasn't wearing my big goofy looking helmet.
I drive a big estate car full of airbags all round and safety devices galore, yet I still approach any intersection with extreme caution. Regardless what the traffic laws are, there are enough people who don't follow them that excess caution is always warranted. If you're on a motorbike or regular bicycle you need to be 1000% more careful. Never assume anyone is going to do what they are supposed to and be defensive in your actions. Back home, many people are injured and killed crossing the road at pedestrian crossing zones because many cars disregard them and the people crossing don't look before bolting out into the road. Sure the drivers are at fault, but no need to senselessly die by not looking for idiot drivers barreling towards you before crossing the street.
I feel bad for the loss of life here and regardless what the law was and who was in the right, it would seem had the woman been more careful, she could have avoided being killed. The only person who's looking out for you in this world is yourself.
marie-claire
23.Jun.2009 10:28 hrs
I am very sad for this woman and her close family.
But let's be honest these cyclists race around town like they own the place and everyone has to just get out of their way.
Yes, but so do some truck drivers. If they have such huge blindspots they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an area where they have to share the streets with cyclists, children, and elderly people.
Katrina
23.Jun.2009 10:30 hrs
So how will stores servicing cyclists, children and elderly people get stocked if any lorry - because this was a HGV, not a roadtrain, and all such vehicles have blind spots - can't get to them? Rickshaw? They probably have blindspots too.
Yes I am sorry for the family's loss, but it is a reminder that cyclists sometimes have to make a choice between exercising their right of way and staying alive.
She thought he would stop, he didn't as he couldn't see her.
hermannyorks
23.Jun.2009 10:35 hrs
I'm amazed how many adults don't wear helmets while riding their bikes in Germany (well, at least my town). It's just asking for trouble. I had a crash once that ended in my helmet being split apart. Would have been my head and the end of me if I wasn't wearing my big goofy looking helmet.
I drive a big estate car full of airbags all round and safety devices galore, yet I still approach any intersection with extreme caution. Regardless what the traffic laws are, there are enough people who don't follow them that excess caution is always warranted. If you're on a motorbike or regular bicycle you need to be 1000% more careful. Never assume anyone is going to do what they are supposed to and be defensive in your actions. Back home, many people are injured and killed crossing the road at pedestrian crossing zones because many cars disregard them and the people crossing don't look before bolting out into the road. Sure the drivers are at fault, but no need to senselessly die by not looking for idiot drivers barreling towards you before crossing the street.
I feel bad for the loss of life here and regardless what the law was and who was in the right, it would seem had the woman been more careful, she could have avoided being killed. The only person who's looking out for you in this world is yourself.
But the problem with helmets (playing slight devil's advocate here) is people fall into the trap that you have here. The helmet wouldn't have saved her life if she has been hit by a truck. It only saves life in certain accidents. But what it does is gives you a
feeling of being safer. Its called risk compensation. So you feel safer and you take more risks. I'm not saying I'm against the wearing of helmets but they are not some miracle safety device that will save your life in all circumstances. Training and road awareness is a much better safety device.
fraufruit
23.Jun.2009 10:35 hrs
With all the technology out there, one would think that they could fit cameras on trucks/cars for their blind spots just like the cameras for backing up that so many cars have.
Krieg
23.Jun.2009 10:37 hrs
You must be a lousy cyclist if you can't avoid something moving at 12 km/h
marie-claire
23.Jun.2009 10:47 hrs
Don't get me wrong. I know druck drivers do an important job and I feel for the driver who had this accident. What makes me upset is that no one seems to take responsiblity. There has been an accident a few years ago where an elderly lady crossed the street at a green light and a turning druck driver run her over without even noticing it. Horrified bystanders tried to stop him, but later he said he thought there was bump in the road - that's all he noticed. The woman was killed instantly. That was years ago and as far as I know there have been no attempts to deal with the problem.
punkinside
23.Jun.2009 10:57 hrs
Don't get any of the complaints in this thread, maybe because growing up in Venezuela has made me to always walk/cycle/drive as if everyone else is going to do whatever the hell they want, their mirrors (if any) are there mainly to apply makeup, turning signals are merely decorative and any accident, if survived, will be settled by who gives the police more money.
To cyclists: "right of way" is no match to a ton of steel on wheels. Just be careful!
You are viewing a low fidelity version of this page. Click to view
the full page.