Students start nationwide education strikes - Berlin

Germany kids are so bad at the age of 7 compared to there counter parts in Ireland, Canada and the UK they seem almost retarded. This subject has long be a gripe with me as to just how long the and lame the education system takes here in Germany is. Now the students. Who do next to nothing anywise and take a really long time doing it are getting a well deserved kick in the ass to change the system. They are striking??? they should have be striking to make this change long ago.

Pathetic. The government cant afford to lose this fight it has to win. As for tuition fees the uni's have no money. Most professors are political appointments because of this. Most of the students are middle class and their parent's can afford it. If you or your parent can't afford it ...well certainly the state should step in an help you. The percentage of working class kids who go to university is now the same as it was in 1870. No other European country has this ridiculous system. Your education should take 3-4 years max Unless you are a doctor I mean a proper doctor.

Do us all a favor and find yourself a really long Practikum away from everyone... so u can 'Find your hidden In-depth exploration of ur subject'...

I for one as an American Masters Student with a Bachelor's Think the idea of Germany finally accepting the idea of INTL recognized bachelor and masters programs is long overdue. The whole rest of the world accepts them (including places like China, Russia, Cuba, etc) so should Germany.. deal with it!

Im sick of meeting German students that have an Superiority complex over their Diplome I and saying that American degrees as an example are 'worthless' because they are to easy.. Im sorry i went to University for 4 years just like you!! but unlike German students I must pay for my Degree, so like I cant stay in school for a Freakin Decade!

Im glad the top of Germans ED System has actually caught up with the rest of Civilization and declared Bachelor and Master Programs INTL accepted.. This is just my opinion folks, and im not personally attacking anyones belief or feelings.. U can agree or not.. Thanks for listing to my opinion

The execution of this strike is what's pathetic. As our experience in Hesse has clearly shown 3 years ago, the only way to get any real change done is by having months of regular riots, seizing government buildings, threatening government politicians, and getting arrested and injured in the thousands. Oh, and start it a year before an election of course. Any other way no one will pay attention to you.
But of course the common German student is way too complacent and bent on finishing within 3-4 years to focus on what's really needed.

That's more like it. I was a bit perplexed to see "inferiority" there at first.

oops yep my mistake had to take a double look .. sorry ha,ha

Kay and blue78. clam it. We all agree change here in Germany is long over due. I used to work in animation and the quality of students coming out of German art schools was dismal. I am sure hand on my heart that their engineers and computer scientists are of a stellar quality what with a degree of such time absorbing depth that took something in the order of a decade to complete.

One other thing : I forgot to mention, lets say you what to study a much sort after course but there are no place. What young people here do is they study something else for the meanwhile this then drop out of it when. They finally get the place on their long awaited or wished for course place. A total waste of resources. If they had to pay tuition fee around 500€ the unis could afford to make more places and the students would not waste there time government resources doing Germanistic or Political Science or American studies as they do.

One other thing : also turkey has more female professors the Germany.

One other thing : to be come a professor her it not enough that you have a Phd and your doctorate you then have to do a near feudal second phd. I forget what German word for it is and you do this for a few years under another professor basically being a dogs body.

BS. 500 Euro does not remotely cover the cost of a single student spot - the governments, depending on the state, are buttering between 3500 (Hessen, Brandenburg) and 6000 Euro (Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg) each semester on top of that these days (weighed average sum per student), and the universities usually funnel another 500 to 1000 Euro from third parties into each student spot. Then the sum is redestributed between the different studies, i.e. a spot for a medical student will cost a shitload, while a math or social studies student costs the uni next to nothing.

The obvious answer to the problem of there not being any spots available is to open up the universities again, and get rid of the ridiculous and unnecessary intro testing only introduced with the Bachelor/Master concept. Just as it was before, for at least half of all studies - in particular the cheaper ones of course.

Besides we need way more Political Science students. Serious ones, not the ones that only study it on the side while working on their political career.

Exactly.. And since you really dont have to pay much (student fees excluded) wouldnt you until your 'dream' slot opens up??.. total waste of taxpayer money and professors time.. I totally agree!!

As said, we can blame the Bachelor/Master introduction for that. And the now-again-reinforced federalism in Germany.

Before all that, just 6-7 years ago, you either just signed up with your "dream spot" at your "dream university", or for other "limited" courses the ZVS assigned you your "dream spot" at a random university.

Zero waste there, optimum redestribution of resources.

I am actually happy that I will get a Bachelor degree in February and not a Diplom.. I started studying 3 years ago.. so I will finish on time- usually bachelors are between 3 and 4 years...
I have loads of friends who have studied for 6 or 7 years, and no there arent doctors or lawyers but studies languages or history/sociology...
I personally prefer to have a 3-4 years bachelor and 1,5-2 years master degree after that...
and not on the last place- most of the countries in Europe have BA and MA... so and the degrees are recognized everywhere...

The name is Habilitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habilitation ) and if I understand correctly, the problem is worse:
- say you've been horribly efficient and done your Diplom in 5-6 years (yes, this is horribly efficient and roughly equivalent to the time taken to receive a master's degree)
- and then you've had a three years doctorate (which is speedy - the average doctorate in Germany takes 6-7 years, ridiculous when you realise that it takes the same time in the US - but with master's!
- and then four years of Habilitation (again, very minimal) .

Theoretically, you're a 32 year old young genius starting their career (more realistically you're a 40 year old person who hasn't really gotten a tenured position/regular job yet). But
- If you've played your cards wrong in office politics, after all those years of hard work (and as mentioned before, these estimates are rather conservative) you might find yourself not passing the Habilitation or not finding a job in your field
- Just assume that something has happened to you that could happen to many young people under 40 : childbirth and childcare (if you're a woman, bio-clock is ticking at one point or another, you can't have children at 70); diseases; parents you should take care of; etc. etc. - all the things that happen to us, as John Lennon wrote, "when we're busy doing other things". This means that you can find yourself with a Habilitation in Assyrian Philosophy or some other exciting topic, but no job, because the men around you were quicker (no kids, no parents - they usually leave that to the daughters, etc.). But even if you're a man, it is so easy to fall behind in this stupid race - much easier than in the US or GB, where after PhD you can start working, and theoretically at least this can happen when you're 28-29.

A friend of mine - German, who has studied astrophysics and has a postdoc and everything - could not find a tenured position in Germany. He would have settled for a non-tenured one, but he's "over qualified" for many "Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter" jobs, which are for people writing their doctorates; and after two extensions, you cannot have another extension of a time-limited position. Guess what, he's now enriching another country with his knowledge of physics.

Don't get me started on the other points you've risen: German students are spoiled brats, who think they're the centre of the universe.

Ha,ha,ha you soo hit the nail on the head!

I'll have to add my two pennies worth on the whole 6 or 7 years studying thingy: Please don't generalise. Yes there are those who just hang about at uni until they grow cobwebs out their nostrils because they just don't know what to do with themselves or change their majors each year until they've found themselves. But there are also those who have no choice to do the 6 or 7 year thing (I was one of them) because you simply cannot get into some of the compulsory classes for your degree and sometimes have to wait a whole year to get onto the list. (For some majors it's also compulsory to take out 6 to 12 months of studying abroad, which adds on up to another year.) Way too many students, not enough lecturers, totally overcrowded courses and not simple laziness and wanting to live on taxpayers money! That, and the fact that a lot of students are working to be able to live if they don't get supported by their parents or for whatever reason don't qualify for state sponsored BAFÖG.

So, who went to the protest? I did, it was rather good!

I guess you get what you pay for, then?